From Guacamole to Four Square: Secrets to Reducing Frustration with Volunteers | Season 5: Episode 5

Have you ever found yourself spiraling in frustration? Join us as we share our personal tales – Brian's tussle with a guacamole-less Chipotle visit and Kirsten's fiery four-square showdown. 

And the truth is, we can feel frustration with volunteers - ever been there? 

We spill the beans on the essentials - from documents like background screenings to laying down clear expectations. Our candid discussion offers practical advice to bypass roadblocks that often lead to leadership frustrations. This episode is your guide to ensuring your volunteers hit the ground running in their respective roles.

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Chapters

• 0:20 Brian's Guacamole-less Chipotle Visit
• 3:45 Kirsten's Love of Four Square
• 11:42 Establishing Volunteer Expectations and Job Descriptions

Transcript

Brian Lawson: 0:00

Youth Ministry Institute original podcast. Welcome to the Making Sense of Ministry podcast. The podcast design helped you lead well in your ministry, transform lives and impact generations. I'm Brian Lawson, back here again with Kirsten Knox hey, kirsten.

Kirsten Knox: 0:19

Hey Brian.

Brian Lawson: 0:20

So hey, Kirsten, I have a story to share with you. This happened this week and I'm hoping people don't think I'm petty when I tell this story.

Brian Lawson: 0:27

Oh, I'm here for it, yes, so we had our council meeting late late last, late one night, and so I was tired and I go to Chipotle to pick up dinner on my way home. Chipotle for my wife and I and I'm waiting in line for about 35, 40 minutes. It was like a fundraiser crazy. Lots of people everywhere and I get up to line, I do all of my ordering and then I get to the final part and they're completely out of Guacamole, which isn't that big of a deal, I guess, except for the fact that the only real reason why we go to Chipotle is the Guacamole. So we were disappointed and I asked them. I said, well, do you have any more Guacamole? I said no, we're all out.

Brian Lawson: 1:03

And I looked to my left and there is the to-go line where they are making to-go orders, and there are two bowls stacked full of Guacamole on top and I also see them replacing the tub of empty Guacamole with a brand new tub of Guacamole for the to-go line. And I tell the guy. I said, well, there's Guacamole right over there, can I not have that? And he said no, we're out of it, we can't give that to you. But wait what? We're ordering? A veggie bowl, and if you go to Chipotle, you know that you're supposed to get a protein on your bowl and if you get a veggie bowl and you don't, you can get Guacamole for free. It's part of why you get a veggie bowl, or at least that's why we get a veggie bowl. So he proceeds to tell me that they don't have it, that they can't give it to me, and he's lying to my face because I'm seeing a giant tub to my left.

Kirsten Knox: 1:48

You're like, but wait, there is Guac, there is. Guac is one of the best things. Not totally. Is the fact that they have the best Guac around. In my humble opinion, yes.

Brian Lawson: 1:59

I know. So I was very disappointed. So then I asked the talk to manager. I don't do that very often, but I did ask to talk to manager and the the. It was a young man and I said, hey, listen, you have Guacamole right there. It's the only reason we come. I waited in this 35, 40 minute line. Can we just get some Guacamole on our bowl? And he tells me that they can't give it to me, that it's only for to go orders, and I said, well, I bought a veggie bowl and it's supposed to come with it. So can you give me a discount for the, for the Guac I'm not getting? Then and he goes no, I can't do that either. And so he refuses to give me Guacamole, won't give me a discount, and then he proceeds to tell me if you're upset, there's the general manager's card right there.

Kirsten Knox: 2:38

He passed the buck right there, yeah, yeah, nothing.

Brian Lawson: 2:41

I was so frustrated.

Kirsten Knox: 2:43

You're like well, can I have this order to go, and does that then qualify me for the to go?

Brian Lawson: 2:47

Right, right. So well, of course I didn't think about that. I come home and tell my wife and she's incredibly disappointed and she goes. Why didn't you just tell him I don't want this food, I'll just order online.

Kirsten Knox: 2:58

And I said I don't know.

Brian Lawson: 2:59

I should have said that.

Kirsten Knox: 3:01

Well, because you she is being thinking clearly and you're frustrated.

Brian Lawson: 3:05

And when you're frustrated you have sometimes a hard time to think logically in that moment and I was tired from church stuff and I came there, you know, not feeling very pastor like, because they don't have my guacamole.

Kirsten Knox: 3:17

They are stealing guac from you.

Brian Lawson: 3:19

Well, that's what I said to him. I said you're stealing from me, you're supposed to give it to me. You're not going to give me a discount. He didn't care. He just, he was not a budging one bit.

Kirsten Knox: 3:28

He was not persuaded.

Brian Lawson: 3:31

So moral the story is. Next time I will tell him OK, you keep this food, I'll order some food online.

Kirsten Knox: 3:38

This that now you wasted because you can't do anything.

Brian Lawson: 3:40

That's right, that's right. So I was frustrated, so frustrated which I wonder, kirsten, what about you? Frustrating stories?

Kirsten Knox: 3:47

I would say recently, as I think about that. We have student ministry and I love four squares. Four squares, one of my favorite things to play, and we play every week and we love it and typically do OK with it. But recently we were playing it and every time someone gets out, a debate ensues right, this, I wasn't out, it wasn't online. No, you were out. No, this is it, this is it, and every time. So we've done this for about 20 minutes and I, like, I cannot have this, like, this is part of the game. So I held the ball, I grabbed the ball very calmly in the middle of the four square court and I was like so, listen, sometimes you're going to get called out and you don't think you're out, and that's just part of the game. It's a fast paced game. You're going to get out, you're going to get back in, we're all going to have fun. But if we complain after every call, it's not fun for anyone and we will cease to play for this evening.

Brian Lawson: 4:42

Oh quick, quickest way to destroy a game. Everyone just complains about the whole time.

Kirsten Knox: 4:46

The whole time. I'm like because I have one student that complains every time he gets out and last night was like listen, if you complain after every time, it causes me not to hear you when you complain about something you really matters to you. Right so if you complain every time, you lose your power. So be selective of when you want to complain about not being out.

Brian Lawson: 5:09

Yeah.

Kirsten Knox: 5:11

Like listen, this is supposed to be fun and it's frustrating because we're just complaining about every time.

Brian Lawson: 5:17

Yeah, we had a similar issue like that with our nine square court. You know people would just griping a plane. They were so competitive and overly competitive, Like their life depended on getting to the top square whatever you call the top square, I know it was like after they got out was like the end of the world.

Kirsten Knox: 5:33

I'm like, listen, in four minutes you'll be back in. Like you'll get this chance. Like you know, life will continue, it will be okay and we even have this rule that, like, you get one do over a night so you can decide. If you think you got called out and you were not, then you get one a night so you can choose when you use it. So I'm like, use your do over. That was my help solving the problem, but last night it was just not.

Brian Lawson: 5:56

Our solution to that was the person in the first square, like the first square you enter in, is the final decider. So if everyone's, if there's like a debate and people can't decide, the first person that first square gets to make the call, no matter what, unless it directly involves them. If they're the ones who might be out, then it's the second square. So that's just what we ended up doing, not perfect but you know it's something.

Kirsten Knox: 6:18

Well, typically we do King like the King person in the King spot, but they have, they have an agenda there. So I do think that first spot maybe so right next week they're going to come in and have this poster board rule for Square and they're going to be like what just happened. I'm like, here we are.

Brian Lawson: 6:33

So we talk about these frustrating stories for a reason we didn't just like randomly said, hey, we're going to get on here and complain because we want to complain, although sometimes it feels good to complain.

Kirsten Knox: 6:42

They may think that our listeners may think that's what this episode is right now, but it's not. We have this Not.

Brian Lawson: 6:47

That's right. That's right. And the point is this I think, kirsten, you and I both have experienced this and I imagine in kids ministry, children's ministry, youth ministry, whatever you're in, you've probably experienced this as well to our listeners Like, we all get this and that is frustration with our volunteers.

Kirsten Knox: 7:03

Oh yeah, I wonder if you.

Brian Lawson: 7:05

You know, just thinking about that, like for me, one of the biggest frustrations was to not be there when you said you were going to be there and I need you there. Like you show up 10 minutes later, 15 minutes late, like it's, you just walk in like it's no big deal, but we're already in the middle, like we've already moved into stuff and we needed you there and you're not there.

Kirsten Knox: 7:24

That was the most frustrating to me.

Brian Lawson: 7:26

You know, it's not like they don't communicate, it's. It's it's if they tell me they can't be there and we plan it. That's one thing. But it's when they just right, just don't show up or just walk in late.

Kirsten Knox: 7:34

Because I have jobs that I've saved for you because I want you to feel you know, like, contribute and feel valuable, and now we're left with these jobs because you're 10 or 15 minutes late. Yes, yes, Mine oftentimes was huddling, like the adults are there and I'm glad that they enjoy each other, but it's like they haven't seen each other a week. So they're talking and I'm like, during free time hang time the goal is for us to talk to the students, not do each other, and so that always for me I'm like was frustrating of how to do that. And I recognize oftentimes when I was frustrated with volunteers, there was some responsibility to take that I wasn't as clear as I thought. I was Like what have I not communicated clearly or demonstrated? And there's some confusion. So that oftentimes led me to how can I bring clarity in a space that there must be some confusion here.

Brian Lawson: 8:26

Yeah, which I think is probably the real answer. We think they get it, we think we've communicated and told them and they know the responsibilities or the expectations, and we also maybe weren't as clear as we thought or as memorable as we thought. We just assumed they're going to remember everything. And my wife always used to tell me Brian, no one cares as much about the ministry as you do.

Kirsten Knox: 8:52

So true.

Brian Lawson: 8:53

And I mean I hope that's true, right, I hope us as leaders have a real passion for the ministry and care. So we're in it all the time and we know these things and we recognize and remember them. But our volunteers, they're not in it all the time. They came from work or from home or you know whatever's going on outside in their lives, and they came in to volunteer with us.

Kirsten Knox: 9:12

Yes, and I would. I think there's things that seem very common to me so I don't articulate them but they're not common to them. Like that was part of that Aha Of how do I take things that seem very common and be able to communicate them, particularly when you're bringing on volunteers? I always notice when I'm bringing them on for the first time it gave an opportunity to do that when I was, like in the past I would say I didn't do that as well, so I recognize some of that frustration for me was because in the onboarding process there was a lack of clarity of me communicating things.

Brian Lawson: 9:49

Imagine landing your dream ministry role or engaging with a community of other youth and children's ministers as you learn practical tools and enriching insights together. Whether you are looking for your next ministry job or you are looking for ways to grow your skills as a leader, we have opportunities for you. Head over to YM Institutecom to learn more. And now back to the episode. Yeah, it is definitely something we can learn early on. I mean, I remember not doing it well and learning sort of by realizing this was a problem and it's frustrating me and so I need to figure out how to fix it.

Brian Lawson: 10:34

And so over each consecutive year I think I got better at it. But you mentioned the key point here is when you're onboarding a new volunteer, like when they're starting, when they're just beginning, perhaps is the best time and the best way to give them the expectations and what it's really like and what you hope they will achieve and do, and how they'll respond to each other and all of these things and how they'll respond to young people.

Kirsten Knox: 11:02

Yeah, there's a lot of dynamics there, right that you're trying to help them walk through and understand. So, brian, when you would onboard somebody, what were some of the processes, or maybe even documents, that you use to help bring clarity in that space?

Brian Lawson: 11:15

Yeah, I think maybe this episode, I think we'd probably lean into the documents piece and why they're important, what you should have and how those will help you maybe not get so frustrated, especially when they don't have that guacamole that they're supposed to have.

Kirsten Knox: 11:29

That's right.

Brian Lawson: 11:32

And then I think maybe our next time together we'll actually talk about, like, what does the process look like for that person as they're walking into ministry? But yeah, I think about the documents.

Brian Lawson: 11:42

I think the very first one that we probably all need to start with before anything else is to do a background screening on these people right To do a thorough background screening to have your child protection policy or safe sanctuaries or whatever that policy is that I really hope your church has and, if not, need to make that a top priority to develop that and do some research and reach out to us. If a total listeners reach out to us we can forward some documents your way. But to do that background check and the screening at whatever level you do, that I think is really important because right away, I mean you may eliminate somebody from being a volunteer immediately, potentially.

Brian Lawson: 12:25

Yeah, step one, Step one and for protection of your young people and families and the volunteers and you and the church as a whole. It's a first line of protection really in a lot of ways, and ours were simple. You know the I think it was driver's license and social security number and all that that you had run nationally. However, we were stepping towards fingerprints and where I was, we didn't actually get there yet, but I think that's where we're going.

Kirsten Knox: 12:51

That would have been the next. Yeah, yeah, I think it's important no matter to know your policies as a church right, and to make sure you align them and that you're just not making those decisions by yourself.

Brian Lawson: 13:01

Yes.

Kirsten Knox: 13:02

Of what you think the steps should be. Have that conversation with church leadership so that there's an alignment there and awareness that everyone has said this is the process we're gonna use as you move forward. But yes, first one, yes, step one.

Brian Lawson: 13:16

So we've got child protection policy. Kirsten, what do you do next?

Kirsten Knox: 13:19

My second was an application. So I developed an application that they got to fill out for one just information from them, but also it was a document which we commuted the vision and the purpose of the student ministry and the culture that we were creating, as well as and probably in that well, in the application we also had the background check. So that was kind of all in one.

Brian Lawson: 13:42

All together.

Kirsten Knox: 13:43

Yes, that they would fill out to be able to be able to learn some things about them, also an avenue to be able to communicate some things, and it set up. Usually then I would do a one-on-one coffee lunch, something with them. So that document, once I had it, also facilitated those conversation and created a space to get to know them personally one-on-one. But to be able to do that in the application process and I noticed I was kind of timid at first to do it because I was like what are people gonna think? Like they're applying, I'm asking them, I'm recruiting you now, I'm asking you to apply so that was awkward at first, so I had to learn how to walk through that.

Kirsten Knox: 14:19

But also what I recognized for them is that communicated a statement of value, like To be able to do that. There is a level of professionalism and in a value that we started from the very beginning and an importance of what we're doing here. That Came and I didn't always anticipate that. Like I learned that that's what happened.

Brian Lawson: 14:40

Yeah, so this is, you're communicating that.

Brian Lawson: 14:42

This is important that this mission is important, it's valuable and we think it's important and therefore there's a process here in here, where we live In Florida with our policies in the United Methodist Church, we're required to do those interviews. So they do apply and you have to do an interview with them and that interview is very specific About, like, how, why they want to, why do they want to be engaged in working with young people, what's the motivation behind it? You know how do they handle discipline, those kind of things really important questions to ask. Anything else in the application Are you, like, in your application, kirsten, are you asking for about them, their story or their faith or their Interests? Like, are you asking those kind of things in the application as well?

Kirsten Knox: 15:22

Yeah, I had questions about their hobbies, what they do for fun, also questions about sharing, about their faith journey, mm-hmm. So to give some explanation to that, and then it would also be in those motivation to what, what. What motivates you or what are you excited about to be a part of this ministry? Why are you interested? Kind of to be able to frame that. But yes, I wanted also to say who you are matters, so I wanted to ask questions about who they are, because they want to communicate like you matter, and ultimately I want them to know I care about you more than I care about what you're going to do for me in the ministry, and that was an avenue of being able really just to get to know them and helped on some Of those one-on-one conversations because then you had a place to start.

Brian Lawson: 16:02

Yeah, thank you, thanks about them and if you know their favorite snacks because you got it in the application, you can randomly give them by their favorite snacks, just because right, yes.

Brian Lawson: 16:11

Yeah, so once we get past the with child protection policy, the screening, safe saying, choice, whatever you call, we've got the application. Perhaps you've done an interview with them. That's beyond recruiting. That's part of the safety policies. I think the next thing that I would look at is some sort of covenant for your team, and I hope you, hopefully our leaders, have this. This is a covenant about how your volunteers are going to operate when they're volunteering, how they're going to seek to live their life outside, how they're going to treat that the young people, the families, the staff members and how they're going to treat other volunteers like.

Brian Lawson: 16:47

All of this is in is in the Covenant. So you know, some things might be that they're going to be on time Right, that's important for me. That they're gonna. They're gonna do their best to be there when they say when there's Say they're gonna be there when they're assigned to be there and if not, they're going to Try to find the replacement or communicate that far enough in advance. Another one that I had on there was that they were I love this one that they were gonna try to recruit to make about an effort to recruit Another volunteer this calendar year. So I was trying to build into the culture of our volunteers, that they were trying to bring in more volunteers. So that was on my covenant, some things Others were. You know that I would speak positively of team members and those kind of things and if there's disagreements We've tried to resolve it behind closed doors. You know those sorts of Standard things really on the Covenant. Kirsten, did you have your team?

Kirsten Knox: 17:41

Yeah, the site.

Brian Lawson: 17:42

Covenants.

Kirsten Knox: 17:43

We would do Covenants once they became a part of it, like what does this team look like? And but also highlight that in the application We'll talk about who we hope you will be the qualities that we want to develop here. So I think, however you do, that being able to communicate that and also it helps them.

Kirsten Knox: 17:59

I want to paint a picture for them of a culture that they want to be a part of yes, yes right, and so that they know, hey, here's what I'm saying, yes to you, and that we're not, by no means do we do this perfectly, you know, but we will. Here is what we are aiming towards and here's how we're gonna handle things when we mess it up and I I felt like that helped them say, hey, I want, I want to be a part of that, and that's the avenue to be able to do that and make a commitment how we treat one another.

Brian Lawson: 18:27

Well, and I think the Covenant is about setting up a culture where they can flourish and others around it flourish. It's about setting up a space where all the people who are engaged can flourish, and that's really what's about yeah, and it helps select people.

Kirsten Knox: 18:42

If I don't feel like I can live into that culture, then it can help people self-select themselves out A being able to say that's really not what I'm interested in or do I feel like I can do that or want to do that. So to be able to paint yes, to paint that picture, I think is valuable to them absolutely so, kirsten.

Brian Lawson: 19:02

Screening application interview, possibly Covenant what you got next job description.

Kirsten Knox: 19:09

Job description Okay, that's interesting, right?

Brian Lawson: 19:12

It's funny. I I had job descriptions as well. But when we tell people that, like, wait a minute, this is the volunteer role, why don't I have a job description? So why don't you tell us what you mean about by job description? What kind of things do you put in yours?

Kirsten Knox: 19:23

Things that I would put in my job description is one I would say the first purpose is to bring clarity out of confusion. So what I noticed was that brought more clarity. So things that I'd have on that is first. It would start with the mission of the ministry, because I want to try to communicate that over and over so people get it. Then, whatever task it was, that there was the purpose of that job. So, whether that was a small group leader or that was the person who served dinner on Wednesday nights or whatever it was, every position had that, so that they really spoke, understood that there was a greater purpose and that they were part of something bigger. Even particularly think it was important for jobs that felt mundane.

Brian Lawson: 20:00

Yeah.

Kirsten Knox: 20:00

To speak value into that and then I would put on their qualities that we're looking for in that person and the commitment they would make. So here's your commitments that you're making, and I think key into that is knowing having start and stop times.

Brian Lawson: 20:17

You mean like actual times a day or times a year or both.

Kirsten Knox: 20:20

Both. So like you're starting time, like what is your time commitment, and give them the time, so like if it's on your program night, what time do you want them there, what time do you want them to leave? So they have clarity. And then also time of when does it start, when is the commitment say yes, and when is their commitments? When are they done with their commitment?

Kirsten Knox: 20:38

So, for small group leaders. Oftentimes for me that was like an August to May commitment, so that was each year. That was the commitment they made in that job description and then also in their wins. I wanted to define the firm what does it look like to be successful in this role? So that they had a target that they were looking for, and those would be quantitative as well qualitative, and also for them to know if, like people, want to do things that they feel successful in. So how do you know you're being successful? So that would all of those. Those things would be a part of a job description for me.

Brian Lawson: 21:12

Yeah, absolutely, those are mine too. I think they're important. I love the wins on the bottom of them. I think that's so helpful to give them also a visual of what it looks like to do well, particularly when they don't know. Like I think about a small group leader, like what could be a win that you could put on the bottom of a job description. I think something that set something like you, as the small group leader, have spoken with a student that you haven't seen in two weeks, that's a win because you've reached out to them, you've now connected with them. They know you're thinking about them, they know you miss them. You're winning if you've done that.

Brian Lawson: 21:47

That's you know, it's an easy small thing that you could put at the bottom that says what does it look like?

Kirsten Knox: 21:51

Here's what it looks like Very concrete, right, very easy to know.

Kirsten Knox: 21:54

The other thing that I would say job descriptions got better over time and part of the way that was is when people, after they started to be able to ask them what was confusing or maybe what did that, they found out that they wish they would have known. So I would spend some time asking questions because it was so common to me, and then their input helped shape the job description for the next year. So I'm like it got better through time because of that input and that feedback from them.

Brian Lawson: 22:20

Yeah. So I think it's we start somewhere. We begin with where we are and we develop them and they get better and better as we tease them out. So hopefully these things, when we put them in place, help us avoid all that frustration that when we onboard them with these documents, we're outlining what we're hoping from them, what we're, what we want them to achieve, what they want their role to look like and also how they're going to treat each other. All of these things can minimize perhaps the frustrations of them not being on time or what you were describing in your frustration, where they all gather together. We used to, we used to go whisper to them no clumping, no clumping. That's just a reminder like hey, y'all are like chit chatting, we got to spread out, you know so. But having all those documents in place, we believe, will help you and in your kids ministry or your youth ministry feel a little less frustration.

Kirsten Knox: 23:15

And yes.

Brian Lawson: 23:16

So, friends, as always, if you enjoyed this episode, we love it. If you leave a rate, rating or review, or share it with others who you think this would be helpful, and until next time, friends. I hope we've helped you make sense of this thing we call ministry. To learn more how we might guide you towards success in youth or children's ministries, head over to yminstitutecom.